INTERVIEW WITH XU WENLI
JILL KU: Recently you were again questioned for several hours, right?
XU WENLI: Right. [We] had a conversation.
KU: Could you give us a simple explanation of what you were talking about?
XU: The main topic of discussion was the organization of the party. They clearly repeated the news they had told me last time, which is that under the current circumstances it is unlikely that an opposition party would be allowed to exist, or even that they would accept such an application. In addition, they also hoped to use my influence to spread the message among friends throughout the country. I told them, I reached a conclusion about this issue long ago. In Zhejiang and some other places, friends have already struck out against the ban on parties for the sake of China’s democracy and human rights, and have paid a great cost. Their bravery, the costs they have borne, and the sacrifices they have made are worthy of respect. But we must recognize that the Chinese government and the Chinese Communist Party do not currently intend to relax the ban on parties.
KU: Recently so many dissidents have been detained temporarily, though some have been held for longer periods. Does this make you worry about your own safety?
XU: I have a suitcase which is always ready, just in case, at any time, I am detained and put in jail by them.
KU: [You have] prepared a “just in case” suitcase?
XU: Inside are a change of clean clothes, and some things to wash with. Even this time, when they did not take any legal action against me, only very politely asked me to come talk with them, I took it.
KU: In fact over the past several months, many times you have been taken to talk with them for hours. I think this little bag is perhaps useful.
XU: It's possible that if we had a different attitude, if [the phrase] "when people don't fear death, how could death be used to frighten them" didn’t reflect the truth [about how we feel], they would long ago have taken action. So, in fact such a resolute attitude is somewhat effective in resisting their attacks and persecution. In addition, under the current circumstances like you just mentioned, one should not misinterpret things. Not long ago we were full of optimism, and that led to some people making miscalculations. But, not everyone misjudged the situation. Sometimes political development depends on a certain momentum to progress. If things move forward, they move forward. If they don't, we try again.
KU: But do you think everyone ought to continue fighting on? You just said that political movements go in waves, but you also said one shouldn't be too optimistic. Do you feel that dissidents inside of China ought to continue fighting on?
XU: I think that people should only do what can be done, and should not do what is not possible—that is called politics. Additionally, in a political environment like China's, with everything you do—especially when you are trying to achieve an ultimate result of something big—you really don't know how many steps forward and back you have to take before it is possible to succeed. It is not possible that you will invariably have wave upon wave of forward movement. We frequently take a step forward and half a step backward. But, I must claim that half a step. Then, take a step forward, and half a step back.
KU: In this way you move forward another half a step.
XU: Right. So our accomplishments expand and contract, and expand and contract appropriately.
KU: How to properly maneuver between the expansion and contraction takes a lot of political wisdom.
XU: That's true.
KU: What do you think are the appropriate measures or actions for the future development of China’s democracy movement?
XU: In my view, with regard to [those of us involved in it], there are two important points about China's human rights and democracy work. The first point is that we must change our thinking. How should we change it? We must shift from our former view of [ourselves] as democracy warriors, freedom fighters, or guerrilla soldiers. We need to reorient our thinking so that we are focused on organization and on having team spirit, and to understand how each person can put themselves to use effectively within an organization. The second point is that the future of China's human rights and democracy work is the implementation of modern democracy, which includes a multi-party system as a check and balance. But, we must recognize that conditions aren't completely right yet; our own qualifications in particular aren’t sufficient. Not only do I know that right now the Chinese Communist Party would never allow formation of an opposition party, I also know that the Chinese people have a limited understanding and recognition of [the need for forming an opposition party]. I see preparing ourselves as even more important. We democracy warriors still do not have the basic conditions for establishment of a mature, stable party, and do not fully understand the operation, principles and discipline of organization. Especially inside of China, everyone is struggling just to provide the necessities of life, so it's especially difficult for them to have the financial basis necessary to establish a viable party.
KU: Could you please tell us about your own history and experience in the democracy movement? From the time that you were editor of “April 5 Forum,” you were sentenced to 15 years in prison. But after you got out, you continued at it, and have never abandoned your democracy work. Please discuss your experience.
XU: I've been active in the democracy movement, or should we say in political movements, for more than 20 years now. The exact beginning was the time of the “April 5 movement” in 1976. I entered political activity in the 1976 April 5 movement. The year of 1976 was a turning point in my thinking and [the start of] my change of direction in the political movement. At the time I felt that the contradiction between Mao Zedong and Zhou Enlai…… especially when Zhou Enlai died, I felt that Chinese people should get out from under the restrictions of this feudalistic, authoritarian system. That is why I participated in the April 5 movement. While in the midst of that, I personally witnessed police beating people. The truth is that this part of history still hasn't been written clearly. What incited the April 5 movement was the capture and beating of people on the night of April 4th. This hasn't been mentioned much in the current historical materials we have [of that time]. If there had been no arrests, no beating of people that night, things wouldn't have gotten so heated. When it all began, I was right there. Later the Chinese Communist Party did redress the movement and wrote a long report of the events. It included some detail about a case in which a youth who had been beaten was dragged to the Tiananmen memorial and was made to kneel before it as a punishment. I was nearby the entire time this person was being beaten. I was so angry that I wanted to jump in and say don't beat him. Then a colleague grabbed me and put his hand over my mouth. In this way I was able to avoid a disaster. The memory of those events is still so vivid like they are right in front of my eyes. Really, because of this, I see the true nature of the Communist Party more clearly. I can see that they'll resort to anything for the sake of protecting one-party rule. At the end of 1979, the Democracy Wall was on the outer wall of a parking lot at Xidan (in Beijijing ). At that time there were many “big-character posters” pasted up by those who went to Beijing to express their grievances. Thus, many political opinions were expressed. And once it leaks, it pours. At that point, I thought that the opportunity had come. I hoped that China’s democracy work would have a base, and resolved to edit a newspaper. I chose the name “April 5 News.” I meant to inherit the tradition of the April 5 movement. Also I observed that China's newspapers historically were started by the people. I had another friend who started “People's Forum,” and he is now still in Japan, he is Zhao Nan. Afterward, he sent a message through a mutual friend asking whether we could cooperate. I believe that this work requires a lot of cooperation, so the two of us got together, and changed the name to "April 5 Forum.” That's how “April 5 Forum” was started.
KU: Tell us about the main content and focus of “April 5 Forum.”
XU: In keeping with the spirit of those times, it was focused on attaining socialistic democracy—to do the work of democracy and human rights under the canopy of this kind of flag. But this was in line with the conditions of that time. As I discussed very clearly in my essay “The Pressing Matter of the Moment,” I even used Marxist terms to say: material development occurs as a result of the unification and struggle between the opposing sides. In fact the meaning is very clear: I believe that in Chinese society it is necessary to have a different voice. Of course, to have a different party and a multi-party system was still down the road. First, there must be a different voice. I have also used Marxist terminology to say: If a race only has one voice, then that race will forever be doomed to tragedy. The situation at that time meant that we had to use Marxism to break the authoritarian system.
KU: Since you used Marxism to express yourself, how come it was because of “April 5 Forum” that you received a heavy sentence and were sent to jail?
XU: Because, to put it crudely, the Chinese Communist Party knew that Xu Wenli was “using the red flag to overturn the red flag.” Because I used the reasonable portion of Marxism to criticize the part that they did not act in accordance with or even betrayed. And they used that betrayal to consolidate their own feudal, authoritarian system. So it’s not important to look at the entire content of “April 5 Forum”—what’s important is that there was a different voice. Just like this program of yours, which is also called “Different Voices.” “April 5 Forum” started in 1978 and developed steadily up till the last minute. The last one to stop publishing was “April 5 Forum.” It kept going until 1980. This is connected to our keeping a relatively moderate tone.
KU: You became a political prisoner as a result of your work in the democracy movement. How was your treatment in prison? What kind of attitude did you use to face prison?
XU: I have to admit that except for [when I was] under detention, I personally did not experience any abuse while I was in prison, especially before 1985. Zhao Ziyang was in charge of the government then. The “No. 1 Prison,” which in the past was a model prison, and had been visited by Mao Zedong and Zhu De, had a long history. This prison went all the way back to the Qing dynasty, and was in use during the KMT era, and had housed many prisoners of war. So their management was relatively orderly. Especially some of the more senior prison guards. The ones who watched me were all senior police. The treatment of political prisoners was still pretty good, and they still were fairly sympathetic. As far as I know, Wei Jingsheng and I both were temporarily housed in a small jail within the Beijing No. 1 prison at the same time, that is to say, in a small walled enclosure.
KU: However, you were imprisoned for 20 years, and such a long period of time was undoubtedly very difficult to endure. Are you willing to discuss your most painful memory from prison or tell us what left the deepest impression on you?
XU: There are many memories of [things which are] painful from prison life. Solitary confinement is one in particular. In 1985 I wrote a book without their knowing it, which was later published in the United States under the title “A Prison Diary.” It was a self-defense. It described in a fair amount of detail the reasons I was engaged in democracy and political activism, the changes in my thinking, and my family life. Also the entire history of “April 5 Forum.” It contained a lot of detail, and was about 100,000 characters long. After it was published in 1985, I was moved from solitary confinement in a six-square-meter cell to a three-square-meter cell. I spent nearly five years in this three-square-meter cell. During that time, I was not allowed to have a pen or paper, and in the beginning could only read the newspaper. Throughout the more than 10 years the newspaper was never cut off, and later I was allowed to read some books. Although the cell was only three square meters large, its ceiling was five meters high, and it had no window. So in the summer it was very hot, and sitting there my body would sweat as though it were raining. The only thing to do was to rest against the cement. That was the only way to feel a bit cool.
KU: Hearing about your being shut up in a dark cell for so long, we could imagine that your body must have suffered torment, but perhaps the torment to your spirit was even greater. From talking to your wife (in another “Different Voices” interview), I learned that perhaps the most difficult time for you while you were in prison was when your mother died. Could you talk about your feelings then?
XU: When my mother died, my wife feared I would be sad, because my mother loved me greatly, and worried about me. So my wife kept the news from me, but I could feel it. Right before she died, I wrote her a letter. I also asked my wife to buy her some things she especially liked to eat on her birthday. But I didn’t know that she had already died by then.
KU: Oh, you were too late, she had already died.
XU: So, after I got out, I told the authorities that the first priority was to pay respect to my parent’s grave. According to my wife, right when my mother was dying, her eyes kept looking around, and she figures that she was seeing her small son.
KU: She was looking for Xu Wenli, and couldn’t let go of her son who was locked in prison.
XU: Right. But now it is all past. I still feel that at the last it is important to pay respects to my parents.
KU: Do you often think back to that time?
XU: Not much. I rarely think of that. [It’s like the old saying in China about how one] “cannot bear to look back.”
KU: Let’s talk about your relationship with your family. Spending such a long time in prison has impacted them, especially your daughter, whom you haven’t gotten to see much. What impression has that left on you? What did you think about it at the time?
XU: To be honest, at the time I was mostly at peace and relaxed about it. Because I knew that my wife understood me deeply, and knew my principles about [raising] children. I really like girls, so when my wife gave birth to a daughter, I was very satisfied. But I hoped that my daughter would have both a boys’ strength and a girl’s gentleness—a person should have both. From the time she was small whenever she fell down I didn’t help her. I wanted her to stand on her own, and didn’t like for her to cry.
KU: What a strict father!
XU: No, it wasn’t like that. I feel there is no son or daughter who can live their whole lives under their parents’ wings. She must live her own life, and must be able to face the whole world. I would rather feel that she had this training from the start than later feel that her training had been deficient.
KU: But speaking of this reminds us that when your daughter (who is at New York University) graduated from college you weren’t able to be there because you are unwilling to leave the country. Do you have any regret about this?
XU: Of course I regret that a lot. But I am well aware that right now if I go abroad, it’s possible that the Chinese government would not let me return. Of course, this is just my judgment. Because of my work for democracy and human rights, I cannot leave my home country. If I leave my home country I won’t be able to have a direct sense of the country’s whole situation. I would feel estranged. And it will be very difficult to come up with feasible solutions to China’s problems.
KU: Last time when I interviewed your daughter, at the end of the program she had a message for her father, she said “Father, I love you.” I don’t know whether you heard that.
XU: I know. Although I did not directly hear her say it, I also want to say here that her mother and I love our daughter very, very much, Jinjin.
KU: And is there anything you wish to say to your wife who has supported you all these years?
XU: I do not want to say I am grateful to her, because I feel she is a very lofty woman, with a deep sense of commitment to society, and she doesn’t feel it is necessary for people to be grateful to her for doing this work. What I can only say is that I love her.