Interview by: Jill Ku
Host of “Different Voices”, Radio Free Asia
Guests: Gao Qinsheng & Yu Ling
Original Program Length: 30:00
Air Date: November 7, 2007
Synopsis
Two Chinese bloggers are serving 10-year jail terms after their personal contact information was turned over to the Chinese police by the international corporate powerhouse Yahoo!. Now it is up to two helpless but defiant women to fight for their fates.
Is the free world sponsoring cruel internet censorship in China? In this interview, these slender and frail women say, yes, with voices so gentle yet powerful that will certainly have lasting implications for companies doing business in China. They criticize Yahoo! for trading corporate responsibility and human rights with profit and greed and, unfortunately, they and many others are paying the price.
This program is an exclusive interview of Gao Qinsheng, mother of Shi Tao, and Yu Ling, wife of Wang Xiaoning. In this probing and intimate interview, Ms. Gao and Ms. Yu let out their deepest emotions and many times break down to tears. They describe in never-before-heard details of the brutality of Chinese prisons. Ms. Yu says, “They wanted to make the charges against him more severe, so they beat him and kicked him to force a confession out of him. Then, his two cellmates started to abuse him.”
This in-depth interview provides its audience, the people inside China, a rare glimpse into the minds of some inspiring people who were forcefully banned from their own society. At the request of the interviewer, Ms. Gao recites a poem written by his son just three months before his arrest. The poem titled “June” is about the Tiananmen Massacre occurred on June 4th in 1989, the sensitivity of which contributed to his arrest. The mother reads: “My whole life will never get past “June”/June, when my heart died/When my poetry died/When my lover Died in a passionate pool of blood.” Holding back her tears, Ms. Gao says, “I can feel his heart burning.”
Shi Tao and Wang Xiaoning are two Chinese bloggers who found a vast audience in the fast growing global Chinese cyberspace. Shi Tao worked as an editor for Dangdai Shang Bao (Contemporary Trade News), a newspaper in the city of Changsha, in Hunan Province. He was arrested in November 2004 for posting notes from a directive issued by China's Propaganda Department that instructed the media how to cover the 15th anniversary of the military crackdown in Tiananmen Square. Later he was convicted of "leaking state secrets abroad” and is serving his 10-year term.
Wang Xiaoning is an engineer by profession. In 2000 and 2001 he posted electronic journals in a Yahoo! group calling for democratic reform and an end to single-party rule. He was arrested in September 2002 and later sentenced to ten years in prison for "incitement to subvert state power."
In this interview, Ms. Gao points out, their case has implications that reach beyond Yahoo!. “Multinational corporations will not in the future be allowed to do things which violate the rights of individual citizens. This is very significant for the continuing development of the Internet, the flow of information, and for freedom of the press. This is the ultimate meaning of Shi Tao’s case.”
Ms. Yu regrets that even though Jerry Yang, the CEO of Yahoo! apologized, it is too late. She cries angrily, Yahoo! “would be able to afford any sum you named. But they find it very hard to have my husband released. How come it was so easy to get him in there in the first place?”
The incarceration of Shi Tao and Wang Xiaoning causes extreme hardships in their families. “Shi Tao and I are homeless.” Ms. Gao says, “even his brothers are afraid of being associated with a political prisoner.” But she and her son support each other. She firmly states, “I would do anything, pay any price, for my son. I just want him to get out of jail, even if it means I am on my deathbed. When he does, I will be able to die in peace.”
“One the day the National Security Bureau took my husband away, they threatened me not to tell anyone.” Ms. Yu tells the story with a shivering voice. “I told them, I would not tell anyone because I didn’t even know whom to tell. I really felt like I was completely helpless.”
But now, they are heard. “I am afraid but also not afraid.” says Ms. Yu. “I am afraid that they will persecute my husband and son if I [tell the story]. I am not afraid because I have the support of so many people.” Paying a price so steep with her and her son’s lives, Ms. Gao, a long-time Communist Party member, hopes “the Chinese government will change soon and improve democracy and human rights conditions.”
The interviewer and host of this program is Radio Free Asia’s Chief Correspondent Jill Ku. She has covered many major events and had one-on-one in-depth interviews with hundreds of prominent Chinese in her half-hour weekly interview show “Different Voices.” She is also the host of call-in program “Voices of the People” through which she has spoken to thousands of ordinary citizens from all walks of life inside China and provided them a rare platform to express their views.
Transcript
(Theme Music) (Male Voice) Different Voices
Intro by Jill Ku:
Welcome to “Different Voices.” Is the free world sponsoring censorship in China? Today’s program searches for possible answers through the tragedies of two remarkable women whose loved ones are paying the price of doing business in China for a US corporate powerhouse -- Yahoo!.
Shi Tao and Wang Xiaoning are two well known internet writers in China’s growing cyberspace. In the virtual world, they had found a small crack in the wall of China’s censorship. There they were able to express their desires for political freedom. However, they were detained respectively in 2004 and 2002 and later sentenced to 10-year prison terms for “leaking state secrets abroad” and subversion, after Yahoo! provided their personal information to the Chinese authorities.
With me here are Gao Qinsheng, mother Shi Tao, and Yu Ling, wife of Wang Xiaoning. I appreciate that despite their extremely tight schedule they came to visit “Different Voices” for an exclusive interview. Now let’s hear the stories from Gao Qinsheng and Yu Ling on “Different Voices.”
(Music Bridge)
Jill Ku: Ms. Gao and Ms. Yu, welcome to “Different Voices.” You were both invited to a hearing in the U.S. Congress today. And your lawsuit against Yahoo! has raised strong percussion in the business world here in the U.S. What inspired you to take such actions? Ms. Yu.
Yu: In April 2002, the National Security Bureau in Beijing ordered Yahoo! to hand over information of Wang Xiaoning's private e-mail account. Yahoo! complied very quickly with this request. I showed the related documents to the Congress.
Jill Ku: How about you, Ms. Gao?
Gao: We have been invited to the United States on this trip and witnessed Congress severely censuring Yahoo! for telling lies. I am very moved by this.
It has implications that reach beyond this case involving Yahoo!. Multinational corporations will not in the future be allowed to do things which violate the rights of individual citizens. This is very significant for the continuing development of the Internet, the flow of information, and for freedom of the press. This is the ultimate meaning of Shi Tao’s case.
And Yahoo! has also apologized to us, the relatives of the people it harmed. We accepted this apology with an open heart.
Jill Ku: What went through your mind when Jerry Yang bowed to you?
Yu: The apology came too late.
Gao: When I saw Jerry Yang there in front of me, apologizing, I thought of my son.
Jill Ku: Your son in jail.
Gao: I cried. I felt very sad. Later, after the meeting, I said to him, I had heard that he and my son were exactly the same age. “Your mother took you from Taiwan to the U.S. when you were a child, and you grew up in such a free and democratic country. You had every privilege. But you helped the authorities in persecuting my son for your own interest. How can you bear that?”
Jill Ku: What was his response?
Gao: He bowed to me and apologized repeatedly. He said, “Shi Tao is a good person and I have let him down.” I said, how do you think I will feel if something happens to him during 10 years of imprisonment, and I lose my son? Is money or a person more important? Is your money more important than my son's life?
Jill Ku: What did he say?
Gao: He said, yes, yes, and kept nodding and apologizing to me.
Jill Ku: What do you think the US government can do for you?
Gao: I hope the U.S. government will help us with the international action that can be taken against multinational corporations. I am very moved that the US government is not partial to Yahoo!. They (the US government) have also made it clear to us that they are interested in pursuing this matter via the United Nations Human Rights Commission to push for the release of my son.
Jill Ku: You were both in tears when Yahoo! apologized to you. What images appear in your mind when you think of your loved ones who are still in prison?
Gao: I think of the suffering my son endures in prison.
Jill Ku: What kind of suffering? Is he tortured?
Gao: No.
Yu: Yes. My husband Wang Xiaoning was detained on Sept. 1, 2002 by the National Security Bureau. But I didn't get to see him until more than 18 months later on March 15, 2004. They wanted to get as much as they could to make the charges against him more severe, so they beat him and kicked him to force a confession out of him. Then, his two cellmates started to abuse him.
Jill Ku: What kind of abuse? Verbal or in action?
Yu: Verbal abuse. But he never said anything about it directly to me, because he didn't want me to be upset. Before that first meeting on March 15, 2004, I had never even been allowed to see him. When I finally saw him the first time, he had a glazed stare, straight ahead, with no expression on his face at all. He was in a very poor state of health. He couldn't stop coughing, coughing.
Jill Ku: When was the last time you visited him?
Yu: The last time I saw him was on Oct. 8, 2007.
Jill Ku: How often are you allowed to visit him now?
Yu: We are allowed to visit once a month in the prison, 30 minutes per visit. I think that his physical health was deeply affected by the extreme psychological pressure. Therefore, I believe he will only get better physically with emotional support. So our meetings are extremely precious. I make every effort to see him, rain or shine. (Yu’s voice breaks from crying.)
I have a rule that when we see each other we only talk about good things, happy things.
Jill Ku: Although you only talk about happy things with your husband, you obviously feel very sad when you think of him.
Yu: Inside the jail, I heard they have a living standard of four Yuan (U.S. 50 cents) per inmate per day and they do not spend all of it on food. I kept telling him to eat more main dishes, because out in the normal world we think that eating more varieties is good for you. But he said the main courses were too disgusting; that they were made from the rotten outer leaves of cabbages thrown away by street vendors.
So when I received an apology from Yahoo!, I felt it had come too late. I just want my husband released.
Of course I hope that they will give us compensation. That would only be right. It's to teach Yahoo! a lesson. But actually, that's too easy for them; a big company like that with so much money. They would be able to afford any sum you named. But they find it very hard to have my husband released. How come it was so easy to get him in there in the first place? So that's why I told him (Jerry Yang), if Yahoo! can't get my husband released, I am going to sue the pants off him.
Jill Ku: Ms. Gao, please describe your son’s treatment in prison.
Gao: Shi Tao had a very hard time during the two months of new inmate training. He almost had a total breakdown. He had infection in his mouth and sores on his tongue. It's very hot in the south, and they were having trainings under the sun. He was required to finish lunch within five minutes. Every piece of rice was like a fire ball, very hard to swallow. How he wished to have a glass of cold water! The conditions at the first prison he was sent to, Chishan Prison, were terrible. It was very damp and humid... He had stomach pains, and had to work very long hours in the prison workshop, making gemstones.
Jill Ku: So he had to labor in prison.
Gao: He had very little time to rest.
Jill Ku: How often do you get to see him?
Gao: I get to visit him once a month, but now I can't go that often. I can’t stay long in Changsha because my landlady will get in trouble if I stay long. I stay in a damp basement room. He wants me not to stay in such a horrid place, because he is concerned of my health and afraid of losing his mother. I am his only relative now. His wife divorced him when he went to jail in order to keep her job and her means of existence. She was a victim of this too, so now all the property belongs to her.
Shi Tao and I are homeless. I stay with my other two sons, but even his brothers are afraid because everyone is afraid of being associated with a political prisoner. Shi Tao and I support each other, encourage each other. I would do anything, pay any price, for my son. (Gao’s voice shivers) I just want him to get out of jail, even if it means I am on my deathbed. When he does, I will be able to die in peace.
Jill Ku: Is there any sign of advance parole for Shi Tao or Wang Xiaoning?
Yu: We can only try.
Gao: We can only hope but dare not be certain.
Yu: I will make every effort. I will demand that everywhere I go.
Gao: Shi Tao is innocent. (The Tiananmen crackdown) was a horrible political incident happened 18 years ago. The whole world knows about it. What’s the secret? It is ridiculous to categorize it as a state secret.
Jill Ku: What’s Shi Tao’s state of mind in prison? Had he talked about this with you?
Gao: My son cares for his mother. He never sheds tears when he sees me. I wait for him by the window and he always waves his hand, with a smile, as he walks in on the other side of the glass. But every time when he leaves, he would just turn around and not look at me again. I know he is crying.
I am very strong in front of him too. I always say, look at mother, (pounding on her chest) very healthy. Don’t worry. I will not die before you get out jail. I will wait until you get out so I can leave peacefully.
Jill Ku: I can tell the relationship between you and your son is very strong. Can you describe the characters of Shi Tao for us? What does his going to jail affect your family?
Gao: He is a great son, my eldest son, my beloved son. His two brothers worship him. He is also my spiritual support. His father died early, so he helps me support the family. Now he is in trouble, it is as if I have lost my arms, my support. He tells me, “Mom, I am a man. I can take it.” He doesn’t want the family to suffer for him.
Jill Ku: He has been writing a lot, speaking out a lot ever since college. Did you foresee any potential harm before?
Gao: I have talked about this with people from the Nation Security Bureau. I told them, my upbringing for my son was successful. Since he went to jail I read a lot of his articles and journals. I realize he is a very mature child. Although he is a very soft person, you can see from his articles: No other reporters dared to expose corruption, he did. No other people dared to criticize the political leaders, he did. The lack of freedom of expression limited him but also pushed him to mature sooner. I didn’t discover that before.
Jill Ku: So you didn’t encourage him to express himself.
Gao: I have experienced so many political movements! To be honest, I was an old Party member. I was confused and foolish. Before my son got into this trouble, I never knew how big the world is. Now I realize I have wasted so many years of my life. The experience of fighting for Shi Tao through the legal process to no avail helps me see the darkness. Now I understand why Shi Tao did what he did. He is a journalist, he can not lie. He must help the people, the disadvantaged to fight for justice. What fault does Shi Tao have? Why does the Chinese government have to persecute a patriotic youth and make him an enemy?
Jill Ku: So you’ve learned how to look at the Communist Party through your son.
Gao: Shi Tao’s grandfather was a martyr for China. His father was also a revolutionist. Our whole family is very patriotic.
Jill Ku: You said you were a Party member. Are you still one?
Gao: Yes.
Jill Ku: Do you plan to withdraw from the Party?
Gao: I have no plan for that. The realization is more important than the formality. The sole is more important than the appearance.
Jill Ku: Shi Tao often writes in his poems that his lover had fallen in the June 4th crackdown. Is it true or simply a metaphor?
Gao: It is a metaphor.
Jill Ku: May I ask you to recite one of his poems?
Gao: But I can not memorize it.
Jill Ku: Here, I have prepared one for you. This is a poem by Shi Tao, titled “June.” (Written on June 9th, 2004, three months before his arrest)
Gao:
June
My whole life will never get past “June”
June, when my heart died
When my poetry died
When my lover Died in a passionate pool of blood
June, the scorching sun burns open my skin
Revealing the true nature of my wound
June, the fish swims out of the blood-red sea
Toward another place to hibernate
June, the earth shifts, the rivers fall silent
Piled up letters unable to be delivered to the dead
Jill Ku: Thank you. What do you feel about Shi Tao from this poem?
Gao: I can feel his heart burning.
Jill Ku: I am sure many people are touched by his passionate heart. Now, Ms. Yu, please talk more about your husband. His case was not noticed by the outside world until many years after he was sent to prison. Did he feel like he was forgotten? Now that the world is paying attention, how does he feel?
Yu: On Sept. 1, 2002 when the National Security Bureau took him away, they threatened me not to tell anyone. I told them, I would not tell anyone because I didn’t even know whom to tell. I really felt like I was completely helpless. (Yu cries)
I was very afraid, afraid that I would lose my job. I would not be able to support the family had I lost my job. My son was little then. I was even more afraid that it would affect my son’s future. Wang Xiaoning’s case did affect my son’s future. His job was affected and his girl friend left him because of (his father’s situation). However, with the help of other relatives of political prisoners, I told the outside world about Wang Xiaoning in 2006. Many good-hearted people came to help me. Now they helped me file the suit in the US.
All my letters with Wang Xiaoning are monitored. When we meet it is always through the glass window with a telephone handset. It is also monitored. We can’t talk about this matter too much but last time I whispered to him that I was coming to the US. He said to me, “you have to try everything to appeal for me! You have to keep fighting no matter how hard it is!” (Yu sobs) This is his only hope.
I said to him, I am afraid but also not afraid. I am afraid that they will persecute my husband and son if I go abroad. I am not afraid because I have the support of so many people.
Jill Ku: Thank both of you for sharing your feelings with us. Many people support you but no one can really feel the pain you are feeling. Lastly, could you say the one sentence that you want most badly for the world to hear?
Yu: I ask for everyone’s support to pressure the Chinese government to release my husband without charge.
Gao: I hope the Chinese government will change soon and improve democracy and human rights conditions.
Jill Ku: Thank you, Ms. Gao and Ms. Yu, for coming to our show.
(Music)