INTERVIEW WITH HARRY WU (WU HONGDA)
JILL KU: The organization of which you are executive director, the Laogai Research Foundation, has brought the true story about Chinese forced labor camps to the world’s attention. Please tell us a bit about your recent work.
WU HONGDA: I have been discussing a number of important issues. For example, the name of China’s reform-through-labor camps has been changed—they are now called prisons. I have long advocated that the word “laogai” be used as a specific term, like gulag. China was very afraid of that. So in December of 1994 the Chinese Communist government decided to stop using the word “laogai,” and changed the names of all the camps to “prison.” But the purpose of these prisons is the same: to reform through labor. I’ve also talked about the Chinese communists’ theft of prisoners’ organs and sale of them on the domestic and international markets. The PRC has already admitted this. There are at least 10,000 cases of kidneys being sold that have already been discovered internationally. I’ve also revealed the Chinese communists’ widespread use of public executions to scare people. Everyone knows about this. I have also revealed the sale of goods made by prisoners on the world market, and this is undeniable. These things are all iron-clad truths. The things they made have been sold to the US, which is against US law. Has the PRC stopped exporting prisoner-made goods? No, we’ve recently gotten further evidence of it. Labor camps are the tool of the so-called dictatorship of the proletariat or of the dictatorship of the people’s democracy. This is the darkest side of the Chinese communists’ power.
KU: How many people in the PRC have been or are still being exploited by the labor camp system?
WU: From 1949 up to today, at least 50 million people have been sent to forced labor camps, and from 2,000 to 2500 have perished there. Reform-through-labor is a “political” problem but it is also a human rights problem.
KU: China has done away with counterrevolutionary crimes, and has made some revisions to its sentencing laws. Does this indicate perhaps that the Chinese authorities intend to improve their human rights situation?
WU: Fundamental improvement in human rights takes more than just a change in a few words or a law, it takes a change in the entire system. It’s not possible to speak of laws under an authoritarian government. The laws are in the control of the rulers—what’s the difference whether they get rid of “counterrevolutionary” or not?
KU: You just said that it’s necessary to change the entire system. Are you talking about overturning the Communist Party? Can you explain at what point you would consider that serious change had taken place?
WU: Communism has been the root of immense tragedy for humanity in the 20th century. The evidence shows that communism is an untenable system. [Look at] communism in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe—they’ve collapsed so quickly liked the autumn wind swept through the fallen leaves. They have already disintegrated. China is in a similar situation. Once the authoritarian system is gone, it is possible that it will become a relatively open and democratic system.
KU: Let’s talk about your own life. You’ve put your life into uncovering the truth about the system of labor camps. What factors made you choose this as the focus of your work?
WU: The thing that truly changed my perspective on the world and people was 19 years in a labor camp. At the age of 20 I was labeled a rightist, and afterward was sent to labor camp. It was as though I was lost in a vast sea. I had committed suicide, I was nearly beaten to death, I nearly starved to death. One time when I was working in a coal mine, there was a cave-in. They all thought I’d died. The police had the casket all ready, and then when they saw I was still alive, they dug me out. I have been through that! From then on I understood that a person’s life is very short and temporary. Only if I can stand straight, I feel that I am still human.
KU: Let’s talk about your arrest in 1995 by the Chinese authorities. This incident attracted international attention, and introduced tension into the China-US relationship. What influence did the episode have on your later work?
WU: In 1995 I became a relatively well-known person—everyone knew the name Harry Wu. I’ve long said that Harry Wu as just an individual person’s name had no meaning. But on the other hand if Harry Wu were the name of someone who suffered to death in a labor camp, then that would be the end of Harry Wu. This is a story that I have no right to forget and that we must tell our grandchildren.
KU: Tell us what happened when you were arrested. Would you mind returning for a moment to your time in prison?
WU: It’s ok. In 1993 I was black-listed. In 1994 I became a US citizen, of which the PRC was unaware. So in 1994 I used my American passport to apply for a visa, and went to the mainland with no problem. I was there 5 weeks altogether. This was my mother country. They couldn’t find me. I was a “regular guy.” Once the PRC discovered I had helped the BBC do some filming, they knew I had been there. In 1995 I again applied for a visa. Initially I thought they would refuse me. To my surprise, on February 1, 1995, I got my visa. It was very strange, I thought maybe it was an administrative mistake. My friends all warned me not to go, that it was a trap, that it was a set-up. But I still felt that you ought to do the things you’re supposed to, and so I prepared for 4 months. I went on June 19. At the Xinjiang border, when they entered my name in the computer, I was caught. I was held there for 20 days in secret. According to PRC law, they are supposed to show evidence of arrest. According to a treaty signed by the US and China, I am a US citizen and they are supposed to notify the US embassy within 48 hours of arresting me, and I have the right to communicate with the US ambassador. But they did not let me, nor did they make the arrest public. But after 20 days, under pressure from the American people, the US Congress, and all around the world, they finally said they had arrested me, and took a video. They told the US government to come the second day to talk with me and arrange the trial. Once court was in session the government side had a witness, but I had none. On the second day they reached their decision, and said I had stolen state secrets, and sentenced me to 15 years. At the end of that day, they said I had another choice, which was to be expelled. They put me on the airplane and I returned.
KU: After the news of your arrest was made public, the Chinese government maintained that you had already admitted your crime.
WU: This needs some explanation. It is correct that I had admitted it. For example, they asked me whether I had stolen documents—I had. In fact I posed as a US businessman and went to the labor camps pretending to sell things, discussing business with the guards. While they weren’t paying attention, I stole documents. This is all recorded in the US Congress. These documents proved that the so-called “Shanghai Movable Steel Tubing Factory” was in fact a labor camp. If you talk about it from this perspective, I violated their laws.
KU: But they didn’t present it in that tone. They said you had admitted committing a crime.
WU: You could say I admitted a crime, that’s right. But it was with great pride that I admitted breaking the law. I admitted that I had entered the labor camp and stole police documents. Otherwise the whole world would not have known about it. Just think, if someone risked their life to go to the Soviet gulag, to the North Korean labor camps, to the Cambodian killing fields, to Germany’s concentration camps in order to get materials out, would you say they had broken the law? Of course Hitler would say they had broken the law, so would Stalin. Is this law right or wrong?
KU: After that some members of Congress proposed your name for a Nobel Peace Prize. But some Chinese immigrants in the US see you differently. How do you view these different evaluations?
WU: Let me give an example. When I went to the University of Hawaii to give a lecture, there were 30 or 40 overseas Chinese students who wrote a letter. The beginning of the letter read, “Most of us have been oppressed by the Communist Party at Tiananmen, and we hate the Communist Party, but we feel it is necessary to speak the truth. So we do not believe the false words of Harry Wu.” I said, have you seen the BBC film or not? “No.” Have you read the whole World Bank report? “No.” They were just repeating what they’d heard from [the official] Xinhua news agency. But they also said they opposed the Communist Party. This sort of thing among people coming out of mainland China is very serious. So-called nationalism, so-called patriotism . . . it is interesting… these people still say they oppose the Communist Party.
KU: Please talk about what overseas Chinese should do in order to further China’s peaceful evolution, or what other methods they can use to achieve your goal of thorough, systematic change.
WU: Today there’s a saying. [Speaking of] so-called peaceful evolution—of course no one hopes for violence, but the decision isn’t in our hands. The persons wielding knives will talk every day about violence. The small ones catch one or two people, the big ones use tanks in Tiananmen Square. The even bigger ones can kill people. They rely on violence to resolve problems. The second point is to be an upstanding human being. We should wake up to reality. If we want true democracy and freedom, our society cannot be under the rule of socialism or communism.
KU: You’ve written a book which is titled “Troublemaker.” Could you explain why you refer to yourself as a troublemaker?
WU: When I went to Wuhan, a person named Huang said to me, “We know that sooner or later you will come to solve problems. You are the person among the overseas Chinese who gives our government the most trouble.” So, this is why I named the book “Troublemaker,” this is the compliment they paid me. That I can make trouble for this huge regime is my honor. But the real troublemaker isn’t me, it’s that government. They made trouble for me, stealing 20 years of my freedom. They made trouble for me, nearly wiping out my family. My mother was forced to commit suicide, my brother was beaten to death. They ruined my family. To bring ruin to the families of all Chinese, that is truly making trouble.
KU: After the Chinese communists have made so many troubles for you, why do you persist?
WU: Take last week, for example. I wasn’t at home. My wife got a threatening phone call telling her that her husband should keep his mouth shut. “If he keeps discussing China’s problems, we’ll burn your house down.” It’s really nonsense, but these kinds of phone calls will say they’ll kill you or burn your house. I feel that people only live once. You should think of other people and give a little to them. After I came to America, I knew I was free, and that I could make good money and live comfortably. To return to the mainland is dangerous and hard. Why did I want to sacrifice my family to do this thing? For my fame? For my benefit? No, it’s not necessary. But sometimes I think there is a kind of self-esteem. Why do people all over the world make movies, write novels, discuss concentration camps, discuss the atrocities experienced by the Jews, or what happened in the gulag? Do you mean to say that Chinese aren’t humans too? They die and that’s it? Once the Communist Party gives you redress, then you look at the money only? Are you only worth this much? Don’t we have any dignity? Like I said, we only live once, and whether or not you have money you die. [Better to] be a conscientious person with moral backbone, and speak the truth!
KU: What are your plans for the future?
WU: Before 1974 the word gulag wasn’t in the dictionary, and now it has become a [part of our vocabulary]. [But] dictionaries put out by the Soviet Union or the Chinese communists do not have this word. The whole world acknowledges that this is a word, representing the Soviet Union’s labor camps and their violence. The word “laogai” also ought to be in the dictionary. We can’t forget this violence. Today if you ask me what is my dream, I will tell you. I hope that one day the mainland China will have a Laogai memorial commemorating the people who were victims of violence and totalitarianism.
Source: Radio Free Asia