INTERVIEW WITH FANG LIZHI
Ku: It will soon be the anniversary of the June 4th Tiananmen Square incident. After all these years, what is your deepest impression when you think of June 4th?
Fang: Obviously, June 4th was an extremely significant event in the Chinese democratic movement. During the several decades in which the Communist Party has been in power, it is the most significant democratic movement. Of course, the June 4th movement did not succeed, but on this date we still think about the fact that in this century throughout many generations there have always been people who have sought democracy. Those who paid with their blood and their lives on June 4th have not done so in vain.
Ku: Although the June 4th movement was repressed, and thus is not thought to have succeeded, in your opinion what is the extent of the effect that this movement has had upon Chinese politics?
Fang: It has had a very profound effect. First of all, in terms of ideas, since June 4th even the [Chinese] officials do not broach the subject of ideology, having no recourse but to turn their attention towards methods for opening up the economy and dissatisfaction with the government. Therefore, with respect to politics and economics, there is a very distinct difference between the periods preceding and following June 4th.
Ku: The student movement of June 4th, 1989 derived a considerable amount of inspiration from you. Prior to 1989, you lectured on college campuses all over China, arousing the students’ enthusiastic belief in democracy and freedom. Could you comment on the role you played during the June 4th movement?
Fang: The reason I had a certain amount of influence is very much related to that particular period, and is not because I as an individual had any significant ability. At that time China had just opened up, and we were able to talk about some things outside of China. I had the opportunity to speak at many colleges and to come into contact with many students. Democratic consciousness already had a strong foundation in society, so I merely had the effect of stirring up a few fires, and allowing some wind to blow in from the outside. Ideas such as these very quickly became commonly accepted.
Ku: When you were promoting these kinds of ideas, did you ever consider that the students would suffer such a huge catastrophe?
Fang: When the Tiananmen movement evolved into a hunger strike, I knew that the consequences would not be good for them. In fact, from the very beginning I was opposed to a student hunger strike.
Ku: Did you try to stop the activities?
Fang: I told all of the student leaders with whom I came into contact that they should immediately return to their campuses.
Ku: At that time did you ever consider that if events continued to proceed as they were going, the students could possibly be in danger?
Fang: I had considered that there would be danger, but it never really occurred to me that tanks and machine guns would be deployed. We thought that perhaps it would be like May 5th of 1976, when some police officers or some hired thugs beat up the students and dispersed them. But we didn’t imagine that such brutality would result.
Ku: When you saw that the government was using tanks and machine guns against the students, what was your first reaction?
Fang: I thought that the government was fascist…
Ku: Before that, although you had harshly criticized the government, you didn't expect that the government would do this sort of thing.
Fang: Right. Because this was not the usual way of doing things. To solve the problem of the student march other more moderate methods could have been used.
Ku: As you analyze the situation now, in your opinion why did the government decide to adopt such severe measures?
Fang: Even now I'm not sure about why they adopted such measures. In 1976 Mao Zedong used clubs to settle a problem involving students and workers, but in 1989 the government adopted even more severe measures than Mao had. This was totally without precedent, especially since China had already been opened up for so many years.
Ku: During that period the student movement was not limited to the confines of college campuses and had spread to the streets. Moreover, the scope of involvement had continued to expand, later including workers and the general public. Why do you think the student movement was able to provoke such a tremendous response?
Fang: Naturally, there were also some objective factors. The slogans that the students were chanting aroused people from many different levels of society, so they quickly joined in. Among the students' slogans, those that dealt with freedom and democracy were of comparatively more interest to intellectuals. In addition, anti-corruption and anti-bureaucratic sentiments stirred up people from all social levels, so many Beijing residents and workers became involved.
Ku: I think we should also talk about the extremely important decision you made on June 4th, the day the movement was suppressed. That was to enter the U.S. embassy. The incident caused a great deal of controversy. Are you willing to talk about the circumstances that led you to make this choice?
Fang: On June 4th many friends came to my home, entreating me to leave with them. Someone even came in a car to take me away immediately. Those people who had internal information told me that I was in a very perilous situation, so I decided to leave. Many friends invited me to go to their homes, but I was concerned about causing them trouble. Therefore, I decided to go to the U.S. embassy.
Ku: You stayed in the U.S. embassy for a year.
Fang: A little over a year.
Ku: At that time, China had just concluded an unusual campaign that was closely related to you. Did you undergo any introspection or self-criticism?
Fang: …Of course, I have reflected upon these matters.
Ku: Could you discuss your thoughts?
Fang: I think that I was mistaken in my estimation of the Communist Party. It hadn't occurred to me that it was so cruel. Originally we were in the Communist Party, but I never thought it could be so cruel. This was a fundamental error in my estimation.
Ku: During that time did you make any arrangements regarding the path you were planning to take in the future?
Fang: My path has never changed. Although I've been involved in political movements many times, my career has always been in the realm of science. I am a person who studies, practices, and teaches physics. However, at the same time, I am concerned about social trends.
Ku: Your thoughts on democracy and freedom have had major repercussions in Chinese society. Could you please sum up a bit, which concepts have had the most influence upon students?
Fang: What I advocated at that time was quite simple. The first thing was that education did not require the guidance of Marxism and Leninism, but even more far-reaching was [the advocacy of] freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is most easily accepted in schools, because schools are academic institutions. Without freedom of thought and freedom of speech it is impossible to create a good learning environment. Later I progressed to bringing up the subjects of free elections and freedom of choice. In addition, I stressed that human rights are universal. The most basic of human rights, such as freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of assembly, freedom of association, and so on, all should be universal. They do not belong exclusively to the West. These few points were readily acknowledged.
Ku: Although the ideas of freedom and democracy were repressed following the June 4th incident, do you think the ideas you promoted are still having an effect upon China?
Fang: I think that probably there is no one who doubts that academic freedom and freedom of speech are necessary. No one openly opposes these things. In the 1980s it was difficult to even to mention the words "human rights," but now China is different. In any case, China now cannot avoid expressing itself on the question of human rights.
Ku: So the ideas you promoted have already gradually had an influence upon the government authorities.
Fang: Right, as a result of pressure. Although they stress that human rights should have Chinese characteristics, and so on, the authorities have no choice but to accept the fact that the question of human rights must be discussed. Despite the fact that during that time the Soviet Union had many dissidents, the Chinese authorities said there were no dissidents. This was a subject that could not be broached. In 1987, for the first time I openly declared myself to be a dissident. Now the authorities have no recourse but to concede that China has dissidents.
Ku: You are China's first openly self-acknowledged dissident. In fact, your courageous expression of dissenting ideas to the authorities won international respect. Many people called you China's Sakharov. What was the source of your energy and courage? Why were you able to do what [Chinese] society would not at that time permit, and what most people would have found extremely difficult to do?
Fang: Actually, I don't feel I'm much different from other intellectuals. Everyone held the same views. Some of the views I just expressed are as fundamental as ABC -- there is no need to mention them because everyone knows them. However, at that time and in that particular environment, especially after I became a chief administrator at the University of Science and Technology, I was compelled to speak out. Originally, when I was a professor there was no need to publicly take a stand on these matters, but after I became a campus leader I had to publicly take a stand. This was necessary in order to make decisions. For instance, academic freedom. I recall that this was the first case I had to handle after becoming a chief administrator. I believed that within the school's departments issues relating to education should be discussed and decided by the professors, and should not be decided by the Communist Party branch office. Besides this, for example, I was in charge of an election. Of course, I believed that the school was wrong. It was a violation of election laws for the authorities to select candidates, and not a violation on the part of the students. Under such compelling circumstances, one could not remain silent.
Ku: In articles, you recently have suggested that China at the present time is even more unstable than it was a few years ago. Could you please explain why you hold this view?
Fang: What I said was that if nationalistic, authoritarian, or even fascist-style doctrines dominate politics, it will be a very dangerous situation. The Tiananmen Square Incident unequivocally was fascist behavior. From an historical perspective, all of the countries that have followed this path have suffered unrest, and often have ultimately experienced disaster.
Ku: Then could you please offer a suggestion as to how China can avoid disaster?
Fang: China can slowly open up, and in terms of politics it can somewhat steadily move towards democratization. But there must be a willingness to do this. If there is willingness, then the path can be found. Everyone says that as soon as we have democracy there will be turmoil. This is because of being without democracy for so long -- when suddenly there is democracy, of course there will be turmoil. However, if democratization does not occur and oppression continues, then the final result won’t be turmoil, it will be disaster.
Ku: Although in the U.S. you’ve continued the physics research for which you have a passion, do you have any regrets about leaving China?
Fang: Of course. Of course I have some regrets about leaving China.
Ku: You’ve persistently promoted democratic ideas, but following the “free airing of views” in the 1950s, Chinese society subsequently experienced an anti-rightist campaign. In the 1980s the political atmosphere became slightly tolerant, but then came the repression at Tiananmen. After experiencing all of these political vicissitudes, can the Chinese people freely speak their minds?
Fang: I think that they will. Even speaking about human rights, at least in a certain sense, such as the fact that a person’s need to think and speak are all inherent human qualities, and that human nature cannot be completely repressed. To never speak again would be impossible. Actually, the two examples you just mentioned make this very evident. As you know, I’ve been through the anti-rightist campaign. The government admits that during the anti-rightist campaign 500,000 people were charged with crimes and then sent to labor camps – many of my good friends committed suicide. It should be said that after this most people became very careful – it truly was very frightening. Just for saying a few simple words, the results were so severe. 500,000 people! Now we know that it was, in fact, over 500,000. That was a tremendously far-reaching occurrence that involved the entire country. At least what I personally experienced was very terrible. At that time, everyone vowed to never speak out again. But as you see, in 1976 people spoke out, and they spoke out again in 1989. So it is impossible to oppress people forever.
Ku: You’ve discussed your experiences during the anti-rightist campaign, the Cultural Revolution, and then later during the suppression at Tiananmen Square. Could you describe an important stage in the evolution of your thinking during your lifetime?
Fang: Actually, it was very simple. In 1949, when I was in middle school, I joined a peripheral organization of the Communist Party. I was twelve years old. Because we couldn’t bear the sight of the Nationalist [KMT] police beating up students, I and many others of my generation like me placed our faith in communism. Not until later during the campaign to eliminate counter-revolutionaries did we start to have a few doubts. Then later, during the anti-rightist campaign, everyone started to wonder why the authorities, who claimed to be serving the people, were afraid of a few words of criticism from the people. So we began to have doubts. Of course, our doubts were not yet very deeply rooted. It seemed that something was not right in some places, but it was not a problem with the entire system. However, during the widespread famines of the 1960s, we again witnessed Mao Zedong’s ruthless struggles within the Party and then began to suspect that there was a problem with the system. When the Cultural Revolution started, everyone understood that it was actually an authoritarian regime, no different from the dynastic changes of the past except for its use of Marxist doctrine. So then we began to doubt the entire ideology, and no longer believed in it. Actually, by the 1980s everyone in my generation was aware that communism was a mistake, even though many people didn’t say so publicly.
Ku: To conclude, although many young Chinese students have not had the opportunity to hear you speak in person, they would very much like to have your guidance with respect to ideas or to life. Could you say a few words to the Chinese students?
Fang: In the past one hundred years, students have been the driving force behind progressive development in Chinese society. Because students are more sincere and pure, when they see a problem they will have a powerful reaction. Students certainly should value this sincerity and purity, but at the same time they must open their eyes and look at the whole world. The twenty-first century should be a period when China completely becomes a member of the international community. I hope that when the next wave of progress comes, Chinese students will be an effective force, no matter whether in terms of politics, academics or economics.
Source: Radio Free Asia